New Change Discussion

  • March 7, 2006 at 6:40 pm #1864
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    After looking at Fighting Styles I've decided that they are going to take another change. This has been a point of contention with me for YEARS in other games, and it's proving all of my points here. Here are my issues:

    1) Exotic Styles being readily available. Course we could require mention in BGs for how you know Sholin Kung Fu, but that's more trouble than it's worth and still will remain highly unrealistic.

    2) Characters with no reason on earth to have spent time studying a fighting style taking it for the extra bonuses to their modifiers. How is a street urchin going to justify having Ju Jitsu?

    3) Cumbersome. It's just all cumbersome and in order to cover all the bases you have to have a rediculous amount of fighting styles, and still, most trained styles are Chinese and Japansese, and they didn't train these styles to just anyone with a passing desire to learn them. Studying a Martial Art or Fighting Mastery is a lifelong devotion, it's a complete lifestyle.

    So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to compeltely strip the level 4, 8, and 12 bonuses from the fighting styles. No more +3 Attack, +2 Will… no Modifier bonuses at all. Instead they will be replaced with special attacks and abilities that make more sense for the styles, and the overall number of styles will be reduced as well. Of course this will impact a LOT of CS's, so I fully expect everyone to resubmit their sheets to reflect this change. Like I have said since day one, if I make a major change to the rules, I do not ecpect the characters to suffer, you can completely redo your sheet if you choose and you will have zero complaints from me on it

    Feel free to vent, scream, or discuss here, it will take a lot of convincing for me to change my mind on this though, just a warning hehehe ( I'm stubborn, I know, but I do love a good argument. )

    March 8, 2006 at 4:07 am #2423
    MinaLeading
    Participant

    I think alot of people are going to miss those bonus's. I'd hope that the abilities replacing it are are nice as what you get for level 8 and 12 Shorin Ryu.

    Peronally I think it's a shaft. If anything, force it to BG only skills. That way you can deny as many people as you want, but still say you're being fair. I can't imagine any “ability” replacing a +6 to attack. People spend good pts for stuff like that.

    Can I deal ? yeah. Do I have to like it ? Naw. Will I shut the hell up about it ? Probably. I'm Gemini, I get bored easy.

    Like I said before, hopefully whatever replaces it is just as enticing as those numbers are. I don't know many people that buy melee fighting styles for anything less than those numbers;when they can so easily turn to a ranged weapon with abilities of their own, and stay clear of an axe to the head.

    The Scoundrel

    March 8, 2006 at 10:03 pm #2424
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    This isn't directed towards you, it's just that you are the only one who has posted these concerns, though a lot of people have them, this is addressed to everyone.

    My biggest problem with these how they *were* and are in other games is: Why do you think a skill that enables you to attack with skill without a weapon should give you some fantastic bonuses to your modifiers or any abilities above and beyond other combat skills like Small or Medium melee? They shouldn't.

    Small and Medium Melee give more damage because you are using a weapon in hand, much more deadly than a hand to hand attack. On the other hand, you have to be holding a weapon to use them.

    Trained Fighting and Fighting Mastery give less damage, however you do not have to be holding a weapon to use them. It's a tradeoff.

    The study of Martial Arts is a lifestyle, not one single all encompassing skill. Most involve religion or philosophy, faith in a deity or ones abilities, athletic training, development of Body, Mind, and Soul. These should be overall character concepts around these skills and not covered simply by a medium and high XP cost skill.

    Do you get any bonuses for studying Medium Melee? Even though Iaido and Kenpo are Sword based Martial Arts styles? No. So why would/should you expect them from an unarmed style?

    Why should any ability replace a +6 Attack? There's no reason anyone should expect any skill to give you that sort of bonus when no others do, especially a hand to hand attack skill. Just doesn't make sense for Catholic Priests, Seamstresses, Street Urchins, Beggars, or Bankers to have an Eastern Martial art simply because it gives them a bonus to their modifiers.

    Ty Landers wrote:
    I think alot of people are going to miss those bonus's. I'd hope that the abilities replacing it are are nice as what you get for level 8 and 12 Shorin Ryu.

    Peronally I think it's a shaft. If anything, force it to BG only skills. That way you can deny as many people as you want, but still say you're being fair. I can't imagine any “ability” replacing a +6 to attack. People spend good pts for stuff like that.

    Can I deal ? yeah. Do I have to like it ? Naw. Will I shut the hell up about it ? Probably. I'm Gemini, I get bored easy.

    Like I said before, hopefully whatever replaces it is just as enticing as those numbers are. I don't know many people that buy melee fighting styles for anything less than those numbers;when they can so easily turn to a ranged weapon with abilities of their own, and stay clear of an axe to the head.

    The Scoundrel

    March 8, 2006 at 11:29 pm #2425
    Ceara MacKenna
    Participant

    Don't make them Eastern then. No one is buying it because it's an eastern style, they're buying it because of the bonuses. Call them Fighting Mastery Style A: +3 Dodge and people will still buy it. Why? Because they want to get an extra dodge factor to help them cope with the huge ass NPCs being thrown at them at times or to cope with having a lower body. What's the real name of Fighting Mastery Style A? Who really cares? I sure don't care. I care that I get a bonus to Will or dodge or attack.

    In other news, so let's say I know Open Hand Karate. Sure, it doesn't say I can use a sword, but you CAN use a weapon irl with Open Hand karate. In fact, you can easily use a staff or a sword. Thus, there are bonuses used. You don't get to add the open hand karate levels you've earned to it but you do get to apply the knowledge gained to the weapon.

    If martial arts is a lifestyle, you take these bonuses with you and use them elsewhere. That's the way I read it anyway.

    If the style makes you more disciplined, then there's a bonus to will. :: shrugs ::

    In fact, I have a whole page of stuff that proves just that stuff, with built in pre-reqs that were created by an old friend of mine — >

    http://www.explorecrossroads.com/index.php…-fightingstyles

    Steven

    March 9, 2006 at 12:47 am #2426
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    Why even have these skills though? Just for bonuses? A +6 Attack won't help you against a large sheeted NPC with a +9 Dodge, they are overall worthless other than ONE circumstance.

    Character Customization.

    That's it. If there are abilities put in that will grant bonuses for customixation like this, they will certainly not be a part of a skill, especially a hand to hand skill. Those days are done and gone with. Logistically it makes absoultely no sense unless they are something *completely* seperate. I can possibly see adding something to allow it, but they will not be a part of any skill or set of skills.

    I'm all for Character Customization and a way to prevent you from beaing a part of the cookie cutter mold that you get stuck in with statistics, skills, and mods. There's only so much that can be done, and I am open to suggestions to further allow this. Here's an idea that Damian suggested in BB.

    Each Character has instead of max attributes of 12, they have 36 points to set their max. So you could be 13 11 12, or 13 10 13, etc. With no more than a +/- 2 to any single stat (So you can't have a 15 10 11 but you could have a 14 11 11). There's on idea.

    Masteries that allow a bonus to modifiers that can give bonuses of no more than +3 to any one modifier and cost 50 XP per level. Much cheaper than buying a skill. These are things I can potentially see, however keeping them as part of the Fighting Styles will not happen.

    Silas Hughes wrote:
    Don't make them Eastern then. No one is buying it because it's an eastern style, they're buying it because of the bonuses. Call them Fighting Mastery Style A: +3 Dodge and people will still buy it. Why? Because they want to get an extra dodge factor to help them cope with the huge ass NPCs being thrown at them at times or to cope with having a lower body. What's the real name of Fighting Mastery Style A? Who really cares? I sure don't care. I care that I get a bonus to Will or dodge or attack.

    In other news, so let's say I know Open Hand Karate. Sure, it doesn't say I can use a sword, but you CAN use a weapon irl with Open Hand karate. In fact, you can easily use a staff or a sword. Thus, there are bonuses used. You don't get to add the open hand karate levels you've earned to it but you do get to apply the knowledge gained to the weapon.

    If martial arts is a lifestyle, you take these bonuses with you and use them elsewhere. That's the way I read it anyway.

    If the style makes you more disciplined, then there's a bonus to will. :: shrugs ::

    In fact, I have a whole page of stuff that proves just that stuff, with built in pre-reqs that were created by an old friend of mine — >

    http://www.explorecrossroads.com/index.php…-fightingstyles

    Steven

    March 9, 2006 at 12:50 am #2427
    Ceara MacKenna
    Participant

    That's too complicated. Make it simple. If it's not simple, you'll lose players. And it's really that simple.

    No one wants to spend too long thinking about their character sheet.

    Steven

    March 9, 2006 at 1:01 am #2428
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    What's so tough about buying a level 13 in a stat, then 13 in another stat, and then being told you can't buy your third stat above a 10?

    What's complicated about buying a mastery that gives +3 Attack and +2 Dodge per level and there are only three levels?

    I'll be perfectly blunt and honest here. If people are afraid to learn new rules, and afraid of rules heavy games, they are in the wrong game. This game will *never* be nearly as freeform as BB, we have more rules and will continue to add more rules as they are needed. Old rules will be fixed as needed, that's how this game is and how it will remain.

    Silas Hughes wrote:
    That's too complicated. Make it simple. If it's not simple, you'll lose players. And it's really that simple.

    No one wants to spend too long thinking about their character sheet.

    Steven

    March 9, 2006 at 5:09 am #2429
    Charlize
    Participant

    I must say that I agree with Paradox on this one. However my char isn't tailored to combat by any means so the decision does not effect me. I did a bit of reasearch online and found that martial arts had been introduced to the European countries by Asian traveling circuses. Of course they did not teach the art to just anyone. Forms of martial arts that could be seen in a traveling circuses would be arts such as Karate and Judo.

    [blockquote]Another interesting piece of information was that of European martial arts. German, English, etc. Such martial arts dated as far back 14th century. A majority of old manuscripts found deal with swordmanship. But there are also manuscripts that describe grappling, hand to hand combat, weilding of a knife, etc. These two sites I found that describe European martial arts. Do not be disappointed since it is very different from Asian martial arts, however there are similarities in many respects. [/blockquote]
    http://www.thearma.org or http://www.aemma.org

    [blockquote]Also, I wanted to add that many well to do schools such as Eton had a Master of Arms. Someone who taught the students how to weild different styles of weaponry as well as hand to hand. There were even schools dedicated to the very art of weopnry and such. Fencing schools being a prime example. I hope these tidbits helped some in assisting in maybe creating new fighting style names or whatever comes to mind for you all. [/blockquote]

    March 9, 2006 at 3:10 pm #2430
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    Very helpful thank you! I looked voer these two sites this morning and found that the majority of Unarmed Fighting Styles mentioned are verious forms of Boxing and Wrestling, though in 1830 the French developed a form of Kickboxing called Savate, which is the closest thing to an actual martial art outside of Boxing and Wrestling.

    So the fighting styles that will be included are:

    Trained Fighitng: Boxing, Ju Jitsu, Karate, Savate, Wrestling
    Fighting Mastery: Aikijutsu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Choy Lee Fut, Tai Chi Chuan, and Kalarippayattu

    I've included some history blurbs with them in their descriptions and had to go back and pick new ones because I threw the old styles up quickly and neglected to look and see when they were formed as a style. Now that is corrected. I added Kalarippa since it's a style originating in India and is now thought to be the oldest of all the true Martial Arts. One thing about the Fighting Masteries though, in order to take one there must be a justifiable reason for a character to have them (in their BG) and they could very well have pre-requisites such as Athletics, Faith, Theologym Steel Will, etc.. before they can be taken to show how these styles are not just a hobby or sport but a lifestyle that the students muse live in order to know them. They will also require someone to teach you any further levels in them. The same requirement as Lore, this teaching can come from a PC or through a NPC as part of an approved SL.

    Sophie wrote:
    I must say that I agree with Paradox on this one. However my char isn't tailored to combat by any means so the decision does not effect me. I did a bit of reasearch online and found that martial arts had been introduced to the European countries by Asian traveling circuses. Of course they did not teach the art to just anyone. Forms of martial arts that could be seen in a traveling circuses would be arts such as Karate and Judo.

    [blockquote]Another interesting piece of information was that of European martial arts. German, English, etc. Such martial arts dated as far back 14th century. A majority of old manuscripts found deal with swordmanship. But there are also manuscripts that describe grappling, hand to hand combat, weilding of a knife, etc. These two sites I found that describe European martial arts. Do not be disappointed since it is very different from Asian martial arts, however there are similarities in many respects. [/blockquote]
    http://www.thearma.org or http://www.aemma.org

    [blockquote]Also, I wanted to add that many well to do schools such as Eton had a Master of Arms. Someone who taught the students how to weild different styles of weaponry as well as hand to hand. There were even schools dedicated to the very art of weopnry and such. Fencing schools being a prime example. I hope these tidbits helped some in assisting in maybe creating new fighting style names or whatever comes to mind for you all. [/blockquote]

    March 10, 2006 at 9:23 pm #2431
    Elijah M Moore
    Participant

    I personally think that the fighting styles giving a bonus to attack and dodge have always been kinda cool. I thought one of the best things about VE was that characters were completely customizable as opposed to BB where everything is pretty static.

    The problem I forsee with this idea is that a mage will (theoretically) be able to keep up in a fist fight with the upcoming werewolves and werewolves will be able to make themselves able to stand toe-to-toe with a mage in a will fight in which case that will completely eliminate any customization of characters. Every character will wind up 12 12 12 with 12 in a fighting style, 12 in Evasion, 12 Reflexes, etc. I guess my question is, are the different styles going to give different abilities that are comparable or are they all going to be carbon copies of the others?

    To give an example, it was one of the best (only) cool things about City of Heroes. The customization of your powers/costume and even the power customization was pretty limited.

    I like the ability to say, “Well, you know what? If I want a really high attack I'm gonna have to suffer on initiative.” Whereas Joe Bob over here says, “Well I always wanna go first in a fight, so my Will is gonna have to suffer.” I like Steven's idea though about “Fighting Mastery A” and “Fighting Mastery B”. We don't need to have them be centered in some ancient style only taught by Taoist monks just to maintain a sense of realism in the Victorian era. Just a different fighting style.

    I personally would love to see both customization on the CS as well as customization from a RP standpoint.

    Just my buck and a quarter.

    March 11, 2006 at 6:08 am #2432
    Nightraven
    Participant

    Rather than a specific fighting style, I think you should generalize styles, and then allow players to role-play what style they actually know. Also, our system doesn't take into account that different practicers perform differently. When I wrestled, I wrestled completely differently than someone 2 weight classes below me.
    Some boxers are aggressive (+ to Attack), others float like Butterflies (+ to Dodge)
    Some Martial Artists always have their skills at the ready (+2 initiative) while others use their art mainly as a focus (+2 Will)

    We can have just a general skill called “Fighting Style”. The player can call the style whatever they want as long as it is based in reality and existed at that time, or as long as it makes sense. They can assign it whatever bonus they want using 2 points… like +2 attack or +2 Dodge, or +1 Will and +1 Dodge or whatever.
    Now the style is more than just a name on the paper, it's a part of the character and how the character fights. Two chaarcters who consider themselves boxers could have completely different bonuses.

    We then allow the skill to be taken up to twice, independently of each other. The secodn time you take the skill, it works the same way, but the total bonus to any one modifier cannot be more than +3.

    So now person A can have fighting style(Karate) while person B has fighting style(streetfighting). The skill would do 1 damage per hit… and we'll say maybe it raises to 2 damage per hit when you reach a skill of 8 in it.

    Completely customizable fighting styles. Since players can name the fightign style what they wish and choose their bonuses to it, you will see less of these Martial Artists that make no sense because the player just wanetd the bonus, and more of a use of mainstream fighting styles such as wrestling, boxing, or streetfighting. Characters who take an Eastern fighting style will take it because it fits the character concept instead of for bonuses.

    March 11, 2006 at 6:26 am #2433
    Nightraven
    Participant

    I also meant to mention that the bonuses would still be gained at skill levels 4, 8, and 12.

    So character X may take boxing and choose his bonuses to it to be +1 Attack and +1 Initiative. At level 12 in the skill he now has +3 Attack and +3 Initiative.
    He then decides he's been around the block a few times in London, and has picked up streetfighting with a bonus of +1 Dodge and +1 Attack. He raises this skill to Level 4.

    So with Boxing(+1 Attack, +1 Initiative) at level 12 and Streetfighting (+1 Dodge, +1 Attack) at Level 4, his total bonuses are +4 Attack, +3 Initiative, +1 Dodge. If he ever gets streetfighting to level 12, his bonuses would total out to be +6 Attack, +3 Initiative, +3 Dodge.

    He clearly focused on his attack modifier. A character could just as easily focus on Will or whatever they wanted.

    Also, as for werewolves having a decent Will score because of styles like this… wouldn't that make more sense and add to customization? Should all Werewolves be stuck in a role of a hulking brute with the same bonuses as every other hulking brute… or every mage a weakling?
    In Black Bayou, breeds were min/maxed. That is the OPPOSITE of customization. It means that if you are a certain breed, you are forced into a niche.

    Keep in mind, assuming a werewolf decides he wants to beef his Will up in this way, he's going to gimp himself in other areas. That means other werewolves who decided to put most of their bonuses in Attack and Dodge are going to kick his ass. Chances are, that werewolf who dumped a majority of his bonus on will is still going to have a toguh time agaisnt a psychic or Mage anyway.

    The fact that we use 2d6 means that it is very hard to beat anyone who even has the slightest edge on you in modifiers. If someone has a modifier 4 higher than you, assuming they roll an average roll of 7, you only have a 1 in 36 chance of beating them because you need a 12. Even if we used 1d12, it makes the game 10x fairer.
    I've told Steve before in Crossroads I've never been a fan of 2d6 because of that, but it's how the game works and changing that would pretty much mean revamping the entire rule system. 1d12 could be used pretty easily using the same target numbers, but anythign else would be rough. Rather than go off on a tangent though, I'll end there.

    March 13, 2006 at 1:19 am #2434
    VEST Paradox
    Participant

    I do really like character customization, I hope people aren't getting the impression that I don't because I REALLY DO, it's just that right now, the rules are in a progressive state and really transitional while I work on not only finishing the other breeds, but also keeping a general sense of balance. Once the foundation is solid then more changes to allow customization will occur, I promise.

    To go with the future ideas I have for customization, I will be creating CS Templates so that those who are not CS Savvy can compete with those of us who are. This way they can choose a template that is already setup to excel in certain areas. The biggest problem with customization is that with it comes added complexity, and unless one of you wants to volunteer your time to help those who are not rules savvy with CS Generation and updates, it's going to put undue stress on people not rules savvy and leave them sorta out in the cold. I don't want ANYONE to feel that this game is daunting, even though I DO want it to be rules heavy to a degree so the days of one ST calling on thing and another calling the same situation completely different are gone. I've seen it FAR TOO OFTEN in other games.

    Customization comes with a lot of imbalance and abuse though, so be careful what you go asking for.

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